PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: You would never dream of damaging let alone destroying any of the great wonders of the world – the Pyramids, the Great Wall of China, Machu Picchu in Peru – but in 2020 Juukan Gorge was blown up by mining company Rio Tinto and with it tens of thousands of years of culture, art, tradition and stories.

Today the government is responding to an inquiry into the incident. And Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek joins you now. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Thanks, Patricia.

KARVELAS: This morning you will sign a co-designed partnership agreement on cultural heritage reform in response to recommendations made by the committee inquiry. Just walk me through what is in this and how significant this reform is.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, one of the very clear findings of the two inquiries into the Juukan Gorge destruction was that this wasn’t a one-off incident and that there were really significant flaws in our laws protecting Aboriginal cultural heritage. In fact, the destruction of Juukan Gorge was legal under the laws as they exist at the moment, and it was completely wrong but it shows how weak the laws are that that’s the case.

We’ve said that we will work with the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance, an organisation that was set up after the Juukan Gorge destruction, made up of around 30 Aboriginal organisations from across the country. We’ll sit down with the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance and co-design stronger laws to give better protection to Aboriginal cultural heritage.

And today in the Parliament I’ll also be tabling the government’s response to those two Juukan Gorge inquiries to deal with a number of other recommendations from the reports.

KARVELAS: There were eight recommendations made by the committee. You’ve agreed or agreed in principle to seven of them. Will these stop an event like Juukan Gorge ever happening again?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, not the recommendations on their own. We need to strengthen our laws as well. And that’s why we’ve entered into this co-design process with the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance. We need to change the law. I mean, the current law was written in 1984. There’s been a few changes along the way, but certainly not nearly enough to give the sort of cultural heritage protection that we need to have in Australia.

I think your introduction was quite right, Patricia – when those beautiful buddhas were destroyed by the Taliban there was an international outcry about that destruction. The Juukan Gorge destruction is similarly significant, but it happened because of the weaknesses of our laws. And that’s the commonwealth laws and there was criticism in the report of the Western Australian Government. There was certainly criticisms of the company itself. The fact that there are gag clauses included in agreements between companies and traditional owner groups meaning that traditional owners feel constricted from speaking out about cultural heritage destruction, these are all things we need to address when we reform our laws.

KARVELAS: Yeah, and one of those recommendations relates to negotiating power. During the Juukan Gorge incident many traditional owners were bound by those gag orders that you just referred to. And this calls for a stop to that via the Native Title Act. You’ve agreed to this in principle. What issue remains there?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: There’s no issue; it’s just a process. We’re going through a co-design process with the cultural heritage protection laws, and, of course, the Attorney-General has also said that there are areas of the Native Title Act that he would like to examine in more detail in the future and propose changes that need to be examined in the Native Title Act.

There’s also the issue of resourcing. One of the other recommendations of the Juukan Gorge inquiry is about resourcing for prescribed body corporates. You’ve got not just the imbalance of power in negotiations that, you know, occur because of the way the laws are drafted – and that includes some of the issues in the Native Title Act – but there’s also a massive imbalance in the resources that people bring to the negotiating table. If you’ve got very large corporations with very deep pockets up against, for example, a small, prescribed body corporate, you know, it’s not an easy thing to negotiate in those circumstances.

KARVELAS: No. So how do you change that? How do you balance it up? Who provides the funding?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, that’s why we’re going through this process with the First Nations Cultural Heritage Protection Alliance. It’s about the legal changes we need to make. We do need to look at some of these issues around prescribed body corporates. I mean, I think, you know, this is yet to be determined but it makes sense to me that if the expectation is that native title holders, for example, are negotiating with big mining companies, makes sense to me that some of those big companies would make a contribution to make sure that the negotiations are taking place on a level playing field.

KARVELAS: If you’re just tuning in, Tanya Plibersek, the Minister for the Environment is my guest here on RN Breakfast. Tanya Plibersek. You talked about co-designing these new laws, that we need to change the law. How long will the co-design take, and the law change take given I feel like that we’ve been waiting for this, there’s a real sense of urgency about making sure that this never happens again.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: There’s absolutely a sense of urgency to ensure that this sort of cultural heritage destruction doesn’t happen again. I completely agree with that, Patricia. But the very strong message from the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance is also that they genuinely want a seat at the table to work through these issues in partnership and cooperation. And so, we’ve got to balance the urgency that you describe with really thorough and thoughtful consultation with First Nations people around Australia so that it is a genuine co-design process; it’s not just the government, you know, dropping a few suggestions on the table in a take-it-or-leave-it sort of fashion.

KARVELAS: No, but, still, have you got an idea about how quickly you’d like to be able to introduce some laws to ensure this happens?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I’m not going to put a timeline on it yet. I think that’s something that we determine as we work through the complexity of these issues. And there are a lot of complexities involved.

KARVELAS: So ultimately just give me a scenario – if this were to happen again, how could strengthened federal laws intervene to stop it?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think it’s really worth having a look at the two inquiries that the Parliament undertook into the Juukan Gorge destruction because it describes not just the failure of laws but the failure of process and the failure of people to listen. And that happened at the commonwealth level, and it also happened at the West Australian state government level.

The other thing that it describes is a company that paid lip service to consultation and really, you know, didn’t do what it should have done. When Aboriginal people said you can’t blow up caves that are 46,000 years old that have examples of continuous use and habitation that are, you know, the site of finds like a 4,000-year-old hair belt and tools that are tens of thousands of years old, the company didn’t listen when the traditional owners said that. And I would very much hope that this catastrophic destruction has made businesses more aware of their responsibilities. It has led to some changes at the West Australian state level and certainly it will lead to more changes at the commonwealth level as well.

KARVELAS: Just on another issue but related, a special investigator is looking at another site in WA on the Burrup Peninsula over claims significant Aboriginal sites are under threat due to nearby mining, gas and chemical manufacturing. That investigator is yet to complete the work. But based on your response to the Juukan Gorge disaster, would you look at this case differently?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think I’ve spoken to you before about the Murujuga situation, Patricia, and I understand that it is a very sensitive topic for a lot of people. The area that we’re talking about is a beautiful area – I’ve been there – about half of the Burrup Peninsula is national park and we’re working with the Murujuga Aboriginal Corporation and the West Australian Government to see World Heritage listing for’ that national park area.

But just under half of the area is an industrial estate, and the issue at hand is whether in amongst that industrial estate another industrial facility can be built. There is a prescribed body corporate for that area. There’s a democratically elected group that represents the five language groups in the area that has a circle of elders. I’ve met with the Murujuga Aboriginal Corporation. I’ve met with the Circle of Elders; I’ve met with the women in the Circle of Elders separately and they have agreed that there are five areas on the – where the proposed urea plant is and that those areas can be either safely protected where they are or can be safely moved with appropriate cultural protocols in place.

There is another group who have a connection to the area who disagree with that. And my – you know, my role here as a minister now is to wait for the inquiry of the section 10 investigator who, as you say, is currently in Murujuga talking to all sorts of people who have different perspectives on this decision. And I’ll wait for the investigator’s response to the request of one group to prevent the urea plant being built. I’m not going to comment –

KARVELAS: Fair enough. But can I put this to you: on the Juukan Gorge response, which we’re talking about this morning and the strengthened laws, these strengthened laws won’t exist for this case, right? So does that limit –

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah.

KARVELAS: Do you understand the frustration of people, the ones who do oppose this, saying, “Well, we don’t have a lot of power here”?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I think the difference here, Patricia, is that I am listening very carefully to the democratically elected, legally recognised group who represent the five language groups in the area. I have sat down with them. I have listened to them, and they have given me their views and I’ve taken their views into consideration. Now, I don’t expect in any place in any part of Australia that every Aboriginal person will agree with every other Aboriginal person about cultural heritage issues or any issue. It is important to understand and listen to different voices, and I have appointed a section 10 investigator to respond to the request of the group who want to see the urea plant stopped. That investigation has to just take its course. I’m not trying to hurry it. I’m not trying to get in the way of it. The government will listen to that independent report when it’s presented to government.

KARVELAS: Just finally, that report, that Parliamentary report which we reported on heavily was called Never Again in terms of in Juukan Gorge. Can you be certain that it will never again happen?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Patricia, I’m determined that this sort of cultural heritage destruction should never happen again in Australia. It is a shameful moment in Australia’s history. It’s not unique, and one of the really terrible things about the report that was led so well by Senator Pat Dodson was that it was an opportunity for Aboriginal groups from around Australia to talk about their own experiences of cultural heritage destruction. Juukan Gorge was perhaps the most high profile but certainly not a unique experience of cultural heritage protection.

We are so very fortunate in Australia – like, you know, you think about kids growing up in Egypt not knowing about the Pyramids; it’s impossible to imagine. And yet we have cultural heritage here in Australia that is tens of thousands of years older – you know, the Brewarrina fish traps – most Australians wouldn’t know, wasn’t learn at school about this incredibly rich history and culture. And I think we need to change that, and we need to value it properly.

KARVELAS: Minister, thanks for joining us.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thank you.

KARVELAS: Environment and Water Minister Tanya Plibersek. And you’re listening to ABC RN Breakfast. 10 minutes to 8.