E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SUNRISE 
MONDAY, 25 May 2026

Topics: Capital Gains Tax, Federal Budget, Tax Cuts.

NATALIE BARR: Let's bring in Social Services Minister Tanya Plibersek and One Nation MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to both of you.

BARNABY JOYCE: Morning.

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Good morning.

BARR: Tanya, there still seems to be a lot of confusion about who will face higher taxes and who won't. So, let's use a bit of an example for people. Say someone had a plumbing business with half a dozen employees. They are 50 years old, they've had the business for about 10 years, they turn over a little over $2 million a year. If that person wanted to sell for retirement, are they paying more tax on these changes?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well Nat, I'm not going to get into individual cases that's unreasonable, I don't know the details of the cases. But let me say this. A lot of the reason that people are worried here is because they don't know the positives in the Budget for small businesses. So, there's three and a half billion dollars of investment to help small businesses, with the $20,000 instant asset write off being made permanent, tax cuts for sole traders, 2-year loss carry back. There's a whole range of things that are positive. When it comes to capital gains tax, as you pointed out, Nat, this only applies when you're selling your business. There are a whole range of carve outs like the one you described, but that's not the only one, and what we're doing is moving from a situation where the discount on capital gains tax is a flat 50 per cent to a discount that's based on inflation. So, there's still a discount in there. So, I'm not going to give individual advice; that's for your accountant and your lawyer. But there's a lot of positives that are being ignored, including by the people who are making these memes who are going around, who admit that they're lying and just say it doesn't matter, it's all about getting some attention. The reason they want that attention is because they're part of the group that are benefiting most from this. 87 per cent of the benefits of this go to the 10 per cent that are making the most money. This is not going to have the impacts that you're talking about on your average kind of plumbing business or fish and chip shop. In fact, they might be better off under the new discounting arrangements on capital gains tax that we propose.

BARR: Ok, so a lot of people go into business and they aim to make a lot of money and sell it one day, either for them or for their family. If you don't fit into this, basically holding the business for a long time for 15 years and you're over 55. If you don't fit into that, if you're doing it while you're younger and you are selling your business, will you be paying more tax under your government?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, Nat, like I keep saying to you, I can't give you individual instances how long they've held it, what the, what the inflation rate is during the years that they've held it. It's not reasonable to pluck numbers out of the air. But what you are ignoring are several elements here. The first is it doesn't start tomorrow, it doesn't start until next year. So, people have plenty of time to get advice and understand the detail. The second thing you're ignoring is all the positives in the Budget for small business. Three and a half billion dollars worth of investment to help small business, and that'll include places they can go for advice on what's going to be the best situation for them. And you're also ignoring the fact that there will still be a capital gains discount when you sell your business, it's just that that discount will be based on inflation, it won't be a flat 50 per cent discount. I mean, I think it is very complicated for most people because most people will never be impacted by this. So, they're struggling to understand something that will never touch them in their lives. So, I just want to be a little bit cautious about what you're urging me to do, which is offer kind of, you know, financial and accounting advice on the basis of partial facts.

BARR: Yeah, but I guess people out there want to know, and as you rightly said, people are going to their accountants and their lawyers and trying to work it out. And the bottom line, Barnaby, seems to be people want to know that when they sell their business, are they going to be paying more tax? And yes, the meme thing was funny for a lot of people, obviously not for the Prime Minister, but it was, it was funny and it got people's attention, but it was wrong, you know, essentially. But people don't--

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah it was wrong.

BARR: But also, Tanya, people don't know what's right. And you're not telling them what's right either because you're saying it's too complicated.

JOYCE: Tanya can't. Tanya has problems with this. Tanya can't explain this.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: And that's why it's important that [inaudible]--

JOYCE: Tanya can't explain this.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: --that they get advice.

BARR: Okay—

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: [inaudible]

BARR: Barnaby?

JOYCE: Okay, so what we've got here is people out there, but Tanya says probably don't know how good it is for them and Tanya can't explain it. That's basically it. And nobody else can understand it. What I do understand is that clearance rates on houses have gone, dropped through the floor in Sydney on the weekend, down to about 50 per cent. What I do understand is the pressures that are going to be coming on people, they say by Christmas could be the worst in the, in the last two decades, that's out this morning. What I don't understand is the Budget because they cannot explain it and they sort of what are we going to walk around with solicitors and accountants to try and decipher the Labor Party budget? What we, I do understand is the answer to your question is that if you've had the business, if you're 50 years old, that's what you said, and you've had the business for 10 years, that is what you said, you will pay more tax. There you go. There is an answer. And I'm in One Nation. You will pay more tax. It's very easy. You just let it come out of your mouth. It's called the truth.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, there's a number of capital gains tax exemptions.

JOYCE: [inaudible] and what you've said is don't worry people. You say to people, don't worry because it's not coming for two years. That's like saying, oh yeah, a year to two years. That's like saying don't worry about being on the railway line because the train is a little way off. The train is a little way off.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, it means that they’ll time to understand it Barnaby.

JOYCE: Well, why can't you explain to them now? Why can’t you explain it to them? Your job is to explain to them, the treasurer--

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, it means that they’ll have time to understand it. I can explain. I'm not going to give individual expert advice on the TV though.

JOYCE: -- you talk a lot at the start and explain nothing. So, let me help you out.

BARR: Okay, so let's move on to this. There is, there is support for this. Let's talk about the Productivity Commission chairwoman. She says she supports the changes. She also says the money the government saves from this must be used to reduce income tax. Apart from the $250 payment that we're getting in two, people are getting in two years. Will you look at reducing income tax? Because she's basically saying that's the other half of it that has been doing it. How are you doing besides $250?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: 100% Nat, well, we're doing that. We've given one tax cut already. There's another one coming and another one next year. So, that with the $250 and the $1000 instant write off, an average worker will get a $2,800 tax cut because of the changes that we're making. Yes, that's one of the reasons that we're making changes to our tax system because people on wages and salaries, who pay their tax every fortnight, they've been getting the raw end of the stick. Compared with people who are making profits on shares and other assets, the wage and salary owners have been paying a larger share of the tax burden than they should. That's why we're making sure that they get five tax cuts.

BARR: But will you be giving the proceeds? We know you've done tax cuts in the past, but what she was, I think, saying was, would you be giving the proceeds of what you raise in these changes back to the worker in income tax cuts, besides the $250, which I don't know whether that's going to bother.

JOYCE: No, no, they won't. No, they won't. There’s the answer
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The $250 is important, but $2,800 is the tax cut that your average worker is getting.

BARR: That’s what the [inaudible]—

JOYCE: [inaudible]

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: $2,800. It’s ten times more.

JOYCE: Why don't you be straight? The answer is no.

BARR: Okay, Barnaby? Barnaby?

JOYCE: The answer is no.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: $2800 is the answer.

JOYCE: You got to let me speak. The answer is no.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: $2800 is the answer.

JOYCE: It's really simple. It's just called the truth. See, we've got to really [inaudible].

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Your answer is no. It's always no.

JOYCE: See, they have this bad habit of not telling the truth. The answer to that question is no.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: $2800 is the average tax cut.

JOYCE: No, they're not giving it back. The answer is the $250--

BARR: From these changes, Tanya?

JOYCE: The instant write off does not cover it. No. See, you can just say no. The answer to the person who's 50 years old and been in business for 10 years and whether they're going to pay more or less tax? The answer is not, I don't know, the answer is yes, they will. We'll just practice the truth, Tanya. We'll practice it every morning.

BARR: Well, Tanya says that is being given back. So, that does fly in the face of some people--

JOYCE: It's just not the truth.

BARR: --in the public arena.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The average worker Nat will be $2800 better off because of the changes that we've made. And it doesn't matter how much Barnaby shouts and rants.

JOYCE: It's just that we have [inaudible]--

BARR: Okay, we'll leave it there.

JOYCE: -- [inaudible] record of you guys lying.

BARR: Thank you. Thank you very much. We'll see you next week.

ENDS